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My experiments with Praveen!!

Here are some of the interesting replies from Praveen..
Why is it that the required files and libraries are not distributed with the
> package?

Not necessary.

> Can any arrangement be made for the same?
>

The original problem is already solved using automatic dependency
resolution (apt, yum ...)

> Like... When s/w s are d/l ed one may not be able to install it (errors like
> ncurses are missing and all)

there is a different way to do it.

> User end people find it very very difficult... They hate searching net for
> every single thing jus to install one single package.

May be they have been using old stuff. Show them debian etch.

> I have been hearing this for a thousand times..
>
I'm sure not these days.

> Is it just about the size consumption or is there any other concern??
>
Could be one of the concerns. Why would every program install a
library which is already installed?

Cheers
Praveen
> But cant we solve this problem by using apt-get or yum.
We have already solved the problem, but what we are missing is the awareness.
Once people start realising that doing things differently necessarily that bad.

Apt-get and yum uses internet,rt...
It all started when we argue on need to use Linux. This is one of the areas where i get stuck.. What will general public do if they do not have an access to internet. M$ has succeeded wonderfully in this part. Almost all installations come with all the required files. I am not talking about the installations from within the CD provided. But an outside package.

Mahesh, can you tell us the exact issue you came across? like which
package you were installing and which all dependencies you had to
resolve manually ...

I always use the net.. So didnt have much tough time yet... :)

>shouldnt
> something like that rather be a step we should introduce people to
> instead of downloading whatever dependencies etc by themselves, which
> we think necessary.

There is two issues here
1) internet access
we could solve that by providing the whole dvds
2) yum doesn't have a CD mode (I keep hearing that they are working on
it). Any Fedora users here? Can you verify if the latest version
support installing packages from a cdrom? If not we need to make it
work like the way apt works. Any volunteers? Mahesh?

Sure.. i will check about this.. But, as mentioned above, that is not the exact problem. Why cant a separate installation like that of a modem driver, come with all the libraries and other dependency packages ready. If its already installed, ok,fine, forget it; but else, its a great asset. Atleast we wont have to go to net..
But i do see a big stupidity in my suggetion. At times the dependency tree may also point to the base packages.. well, we dont need to provide an entire Linux installation set, just tyo install a single package either!!!! :) Perhaps some work has to be done. And a standard be developed so that anyone developing a separate package, pack the installation in a particular style that the general public is not affected much...

>
> Anyways thats my opinion. But then im a noob, so cant say much.
every one is a noob in something or the other, so don't mind.

Thanks!!! :)

Cheers
Praveen



> I know what apt is, what it does. I do use aptitude and synaptic pakage
> manager. The alien, dpkg and rpm are also some wat knon to me.
>

But from your earlier mail, it didn't look like so. Why would you want
to use rpm, alien and dpkg when you know apt/aptitude and synaptic
does the dependency resolution and expect rpm/dpkg to resolve
dependencies when you know well that they won't?

Would a new user go to command line and type dpkg or he goes to menu
and click on synaptic?

> Its not about i knowing all these. But if a newbee comes and uses it...
> Will he have all the patients to sit and learn all these.. Sorry to say, but
> such an attitude in us is perhaps the greatest strrength for M$ idiots...

What is there to learn about synaptic? Does he have to worry about
dependencies? All software listed in synaptic are tested to work with
the rest of the system.

> We never bother to think in the way of those people who dont even know how
> to use computer. I hope GNU/Linux is not just for the Engg. guys. Though a
> lot of work have been done in simplifying all these to some extend, many of
> them never occur within few clicks.. Does it? And a lot of prequisites are
> expected, rt..

I thought the default install suffice for those who don't know how to
use a computer. They have a web browser, email client, office program
which can read and write their MS Office files, have a chat program
that works with all popular IM services, a music player and movie
player that plays popular formats (debian comes with mp3 and mpeg
support, he might need some tweaking if he has videos in proprietary,
and the issue is legal).

> Why the hell should a normal user try to know how things work inside. They
> can never see the beauty of Synaptic Package Manager. All they want is, U
> put a CD that is supposed to install x, y, z..., and it does it without
> much interaction with user. Many are used to such a kind of work. They are
> not patient enough. I may do it, thats coz i like doing it. But all are not
> like that. Are they?

I still don't get it. Are you assuming things? Isn't it how it works
already? [Well, I agree it wasn't like this before, but why would we
worry about problems which we have already resolved]. Give them th 3
debian etch dvds. It has everything that they needs (minus things
which we cannot have it legally). Now if you want to make that too
easier for the newbie user you can do it. Would you spent some time on
it?

Ok do it this way. go to http://debian-multimedia.org/

add the repositories to your sources.list

install w32codecs
and other which you think a normal user would need. You might want to
include beryl http://debian.beryl-project.org/ in the cd as well.

(you are not considered as a normal user so you could do all this
easily or with some effort in learning stuff).

Now create a local repository. Here you will have some details
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-basico.en.html#s-dpkg-scanpackages

burn the repository onto a cd. Now upload the cd image on the net if
you like. Give the cd to the 'users'. They can add the cd to their
repository using gui alone. Open synaptic and go to edit -> add cdrom

now browse the multimedia list and install the required package. Now
before you cry it is difficult show us what you have done to change
the situation. This is not rocket science. Show us the cd (I have done
this before).

> How many of the *normal* users are aware of such a guy..? How many of them
> will try to find out?

You can tell them right? Why are you not doing anything to change the
situation and blame everyone else? Are you not part of the community?
can't you do this simple thing (make a cd with the required
dependencies to make life easier for the normal user)?

> And will he be able to distribute it through the country? See in such a
> percpective where in the need of the user is completly satisfied.. The
> costemer point of view.

Are you ready to pay for the service. We are talking about Free as in
Freedom not as in Free cds or Free service. If you pay him he will be
ready to offer his service till you are happy.

> How many users will *dare* to do experiments with their new PC? How many
> will even *think* of learning to do things, in a world like this.
> I have a million students, mostly avg guys, who donot understand the
> complexities of things behind computers, coming and asking me such simple
> questions. I have seen things in their point of view. I do undersatand their
> concern. For eg. Just revise the mail of Antony.. He too perhaps has felt
> the same.. they want things to be simple. And they will go for that which is
> simple.

Don't bring students here as normal users. They need to know how
things work, because they are going to make new things in the world.
Who said everyone has to spent time on experimenting, you could pay
someone to do it for you. Now there is http://zyxware.com/ in TVM who
offers support for PCs and laptops with Free Software. Yes it is very
simple now. Just call up this guys, tell them what you want, they will
do it for you, and pay for the time they have spent. We are not
talking about Free lunch or illegal copying here. Hope you get it.
Show me the add on cd before you reply. [You are a computer science
engineering student and you could do it very easily]
- Hide quoted text -

Cheers
Praveen

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